BGT：What inspired you to be a roaster in coffee industry?
怎麼進來這一行的？
Peter：
There were two steps in this. Firstly back in 1998 I had my first cup of Specialty Coffee which really opened my eyes. Before having tasted Specialty Coffee when some one said ‘oh this is a nice cup of coffee’ I couldn’t really remember it to be so much better than the other coffees I had tasted. But in 1998 I by luck got a job at Dromedar Kaffebar in Bergen, Norway who had Specialty Coffee from Solberg & Hansen. They gave me the first tasting of Specialty Coffee and the flavour impressions made a huge impact on me. There were so many different flavours in the coffees from the different countries that Solberg & Hansen had roasted, that a new world opened up to me. From this experience I was ‘hooked on Specialty Coffee’. After I came back from Norway to Denmark I was hired at Estate Coffee to open the Estate Coffee Shop. This was the next step towards becoming a roaster. At that time all Estate Coffee was wage roasted at a larger Roasting Company. We at Estate Coffee worked a lot with the Roasting Company, but it was a hard time getting them to roast as we preferred. Luckily the Roasting Company was sold to an even bigger Swedish Roasting company at the same time as I was finished with my university studies. Therefore we decided to open our own Roastery where I became the roastmaster. So my way into roasting was partly a few lucky circumstances and partly the impression that Solberg & Hansens coffees had given me.
我分成二個階段來談。
第一階段要回溯到1998年，我的精品咖啡初體驗讓我大開眼界。在這以前當我聽到有人說：『喔，這是一杯好咖啡』的時候，我都無法體會這杯咖啡跟我以前喝過的有什麼不同，好在哪裡？有多好？但是1998年我很幸運地能夠在挪威卑爾根的Dromedar Kaffebar任職，這裡有Solberg & Hansen烘焙公司所配合供應的精品咖啡。Dromedar給予了我對精品咖啡的第一次品嚐經驗與風味印象，這對於我來說影響相當大。Solberg & Hansen烘焙的精品咖啡所呈現的不同產地風貌，真正為我開啟了一個新的咖啡領域。這段工作經驗讓我開始沈醉在精品咖啡的世界。
後來我回到丹麥受雇於Estate Coffee，這是第二個階段，我開始往烘焙工作前進。在那時Estate Coffee所有的咖啡都交由另一家較大型的烘焙公司處理，但是畢竟不能主導烘焙出我們所喜歡的咖啡類型。很湊巧地後來這家公司被瑞典的另一家大公司購併了，在同時我也完成了我的大學課業，因此我們當下決定開設屬於自己的烘焙廠，而由我總管烘焙作業。所以，我的烘焙之路有部分是因為幸運的機遇，有部分則要歸功於S&H的啟蒙。BGT：Please describe the espresso blend that your company won 1st place in the World Barista Championship in 2006?
談談貴公司贏得2006 WBC的冠軍配方。
Peter：
The espressoblend that Klaus and I made for his presentation at WBC 2006 came from a wish to make an espresso with less bitterness and more pure coffee aroma. Klaus came in 3rd in WBC 2004 and since that day we started preparing for his presentation two years later. At that time we had La Minita from Tarrazu in Costa Rica in our coffee menu at Estate Coffee and we were very impressed by the cleanliness and pure coffee aroma from this coffee. The problem was that the acidity got too sharp when prepared for espresso and the body not intense enough. Therefore we started looking out for some coffee that was not washed to supplement the La Minita. The big challenge was that we wanted to roast very light to avoid unnecessary bitterness and carbony tones. But when we roasted this light all the defects showed themselves much clearer in the cup. So we needed to find a coffee that was not washed but was still very clean in the coffee flavour. This was really difficult! After we had tried a lot of coffees none of them clean enough we traveled to Cerrado in Brazil to the Daterra farm. We cupped a lot of their very nice coffees and afterwards we brewed them as espresso. When we came to the Daterra Sweet Collection in the espresso cupping we were astonished – this coffee had a tremendous sweetness and body but still it was very clean. It was that sweet and creamy in the mouthfeel that it almost seem like drinking a kind of pure coffee cream (not anything like Baileys!)! So we had found our not washed coffee in the Pulped Natural Daterra Sweet Collection. But as with a good dessert the sweet cream is best combined with a fresh and aromatic flavour. In this way we combined the Daterra and La Minita coffees to get a very sweet and clean espresso with a creamy mouthfeel from Daterra and liveliness and delicate aromas from La Minita. Of course developing the right roasting strategy for this coffee was at least as long a story. In short we roasted the beans separately because they were both so refined in their own way that roasting them together made no point. We roasted them very light only to the beginning of the second pop (La Minita a bit longer into the second pop).
我與Klaus在研發2006 WBC blend的時候，發想重點是最少的苦味和最多的純淨香味。自從Klaus在2004年得到WBC季軍開始，我們立刻投入準備工作達二年之久。在當時Estate Coffee已經開始販售La Minita，我們對它的潔淨質感和純粹香氣都留下極深刻的印象。問題是在espresso上的表現酸味太過銳利，而body強度不足，所以我們開始尋找別的非水洗豆來與La Minita做互補。這是個大挑戰，因為我們希望烘焙度非常淺，來避免不必要的苦味與碳味，但是通常那麼淺的烘焙度也會讓所有風味缺陷更清楚地呈現到杯子裡。所以我們不只需要一個非水洗咖啡，還要同時具備乾淨風味的特性。這真的很難。在一連串的選擇嘗試之後，都失敗在潔淨度不夠。最後來到巴西Cerrado區的Daterra農莊，我們杯測了許多好豆子，並且也用espresso沖煮來測試。Daterra Sweet Collection在杯測過程中的表現令我們驚嘆，它不但有驚人的甜度與厚重body，也具備了非常乾淨的質感，整個香甜奶油般的口腔觸感，就像喝到一種純淨的咖啡乳脂。所以我們總算找到我們所要的豆子，那就是Pulped Natural Daterra Sweet Collection。一般在甜點製作上，用甜味奶油來結合新鮮、芳香的味道會是個好方法。我們也用這種方式來結合這二種咖啡，得到又甜又乾淨的espresso，不但有著Daterra乳脂般的觸感，也兼具La Minita細緻又充滿活力的香氣。當然，開發出正確的烘焙對策這段過程是漫長的，總之我們採取的是分開烘焙再混合的方式，Daterra的落點在二爆剛開始，Minita則是進的更深一點點。BGT：What advice and tips do you have for a roaster who just getting start?
對於剛開始烘焙工作的朋友們，有沒有甚麼建議或提示？
Peter：
Get good a cupping! In my point of view cupping is fundamental for every roaster. When you know how to cup you can evaluate what you are doing at the roaster and then get better from experimenting with blends, roast profiles and strategies.
做好杯測的工作！我的觀念裡，杯測是每個烘焙師必須的基本功。學會杯測表示你有能力去評估配方調製、烘焙曲線與規劃烘焙策略。BGT：You are a great roaster and also a well experienced barista, what kind of ability do you think a roaster should have? And how to learn? And how a roaster communicate with a barista?
你是個好烘焙師同時也是經驗老道的barista，你覺得烘焙師該具備甚麼能力？怎麼學習？又如何與barista溝通？
Peter：
This is really a difficult question – I think that you need a lot of different skills to be a roaster. Cupping is fundamental but as a roaster it is also important to know your beans and your equipment. But I also think it is equally important to know your coffee colleagues! One of the great differences between coffee and other gourmet products especially like wine is that it is not ‘one house’ making the product. For instance in the wine business ‘the producer’ is often just ‘one house’ i.e. the Wine yard. And they more or less are entirely responsible for the quality that the consumer experiences. As a roaster you are ‘one house’ in the chain of people contributing to the quality that the consumer experiences. If you as a roaster want’s to give the consumer a good experience you are dependent on the other people in the coffee chain to also work for the same goal. Therefore you should also at best make personal relations to the baristas brewing your coffee and the farmers growing your coffee. In the long run I believe this will be the best way to secure an ongoing qualitative development of Specialty Coffee.
這確實是個困難的問題～我認為身為一個烘焙師需要許多不同的技藝與能力。杯測是最基本的，另外還要去認識咖啡豆本身跟所使用的烘焙器械，我認為瞭解你的工作同仁們也是同等重要的事情。咖啡和其他食品製作，有一點很大的不同，是咖啡並非能由一家店或是一個人獨立製作而成的。例如在製酒公司裡面，絕大部分的工作通常都是集中在一個人或極少數人身上，他們完全地負責產品的品質以及消費者的感受。而咖啡業不同，如果一個烘焙師希望帶給消費者好的感官體驗，那你必須仰賴在這個咖啡圈子裡，為了相同目標奮鬥的所有人。因此，你必須盡力聯繫起咖啡栽植者與沖煮執行者之間的關係。從長遠來看，我相信這是確保精品咖啡品質不斷前進的最佳方法。BGT：What kind of single overriding flavor in the espresso is the worst? And what kind of flavor is your priority choice?
哪一種味道是你覺得在espresso裡最不該出現的缺點？而哪一種風味又是你會優先選擇的？
Peter：
Of course you can sometimes find defects that are very unpleasant but except of these to much roasty bitterness is for me killing the nice experience of espresso. If the espresso is very bitter the nice natural fragile aromas are gone and the acidity is usually also gone.
當然，你有時會發現一些非常令人不愉快的缺陷風味，但就我個人而言，太多因為烘焙造成的苦味會是espresso美味的殺手。
如果espresso非常苦，那麼那些細緻的天然芳香會消失，而且酸味通常也會不見。BGT：Which one is your favorite single origin coffee? Did you use it as one of your espresso blend?
Should espresso blend designed for different purpose, for example: straight shot or for cappa? Can a espresso designed for dual-used blend？
你最喜歡的單品咖啡？你會用進配方裡嗎？你覺得需要因為不同的需求而設計不同配方嗎，還是你覺得可以做到單喝、加奶都適用的程度？
Peter：
As coffee for French press I am a huge Kenya fan! Especially the intense floral aromas but also the crisp acidity and powerfull body of good Kenyan coffee is to me unique!
Personally I think you do not need to make different espressoblends for different purpose. I prefer to have an espresso that is perfect as a straight shot because this will also be good in cappuccinoes. But I know that a lot of people do not agree on this and especially a lot of cafe or coffee shop owners tend to prefer a coffee that is still strong even though they put half a liter of milk on top of a single shot. Generally I believe that if you have good baristas you will get extracted a lot of flavour and this will go nicely through the milk. If people want a coffee with half a liter of milk it is because they don’t like the taste of the coffee! All that said of course people have different flavour preferences also your customers and therefore you might need to have different espressoblends to suit their preferences.
用法國壓沖煮的話，我絕對是一個肯亞瘋狂愛好者，特別是好的肯亞咖啡所擁有的強烈花香、清爽俐落的酸味和厚實body，都是獨一無二的。
就我個人看法，我想你不需要為了不同的用途，而刻意地去調配不同的espresso配方。我會更喜歡那些直接單喝就很好喝的配方豆，因為那通常在卡布上的表現也會很不錯。但我知道有很多人不認同這一點，尤其是很多咖啡店老闆喜歡調配更濃烈風味的咖啡，儘管他們老是加了500cc牛奶來折磨一份espresso single。我總是相信一個好的barista有能力萃取足夠的咖啡風味，來與牛奶做出完美匹配。我覺得會喜歡咖啡加很多牛奶的人，是因為他並不喜歡咖啡本身的味道。當然每個人總是有他不同口味的偏好，你的顧客也是，因此你也許需要不同的配方豆來滿足你的顧客。BGT：We know Estate Coffee is a famous micro-roastery, coffee shop and wholesaler and you guys won great reputations，could you give some suggestion for the roaster in Taiwan?
我們知道貴公司已經是知名的小型烘焙公司、咖啡店和批發商，你們也獲得了相當好的評價，你能給予台灣同質性的業者一些建議嗎？
Peter：
Make sure that the management have well defined ideas of where to go with specialty coffee – what are the ambitions, the goals and the strategies. I believe David Schomer said that whatever idea the management/owner of your business have regarding specialty coffee it will work its way through the business, so you might as well make it very clear for what reason your in it! Is it a passionate drive for the love of coffee or is it because there seems to be good profits in specialty coffee or something in between? And then finally a good dialog with and respect for the people who are standing daily with their hands on the coffee is essential, because they are the ones making the quality!
經營者要很明確地掌握精品咖啡潮流的趨勢，有野心，有目標，有經營策略。我相信David Schomer說的：經營者對精品咖啡的態度，會影響到你的商業模式。所以你最好搞清楚你為什麼要在這一行幹下去？是因為對咖啡純粹的熱愛呢？還是因為精品咖啡有利可圖？還是別的原因？最後，對於那些每天站在崗位上搞咖啡的人，我們要給予絕對的尊重，因為畢竟他們都是品質的保障！BGT：In your concept, what is “slow roast” and how to define? What’s the benefit of a espresso blend from slow roast?
在你的觀念裡，甚麼是『慢炒』？怎麼定義？你覺得慢炒的方式對espresso blend有甚麼好處？
Peter：
Well I guees the general concept of slowroast is related to the overall time the coffee stays in the roaster and it would probably generally be between 10 and 20 minutes. Just from that definition you cannot say anything general regarding the cup quality. You need to look at the roast profile more closely. You need to find the right development speed for different stages of the roast. The most important being the time from the 1st pop end until you take the coffee out of the roaster. If this is done good you will get a lot more sweetness, more distinct fragile aromas and a harder bean than if you “speedroast”. The phases before 1st pop and also the cooling phase is important to control as well – if your cooling time is too long you can still bake the coffee even though you did a perfect roast from 1st pop until you took it out of the roaster.
我想，一般對於慢炒的概念都跟烘焙總時間有關，通常說法在10-20分鐘之間。從這個定義你並無法跟實際喝到的風味做出連結。你需要更進一步地嚴密監控烘焙曲線，判斷出每個烘焙階段所需要的正確發展速度。第一爆結束後，到整個烘焙結束，這段是最為關鍵重要的部分。這段做的好，可以讓你得到相對於快速烘焙模式有更高的甜度、更多清晰分明的細緻香氣。進入第一爆之前，和烘焙結束的冷卻過程也都是很重要的。如果冷卻時間過長，豆子仍然有自焙的情形，都是會讓你前功盡棄的。BGT：How about The 2006 WBC champion effect Estate coffee? In business point view, did you think a roaster company should attend WBC?
2006 WBC冠軍為貴公司帶來甚麼影響？從生意面來看，你覺得烘焙公司應該參與WBC嗎？
Peter：
The 2006 WBC Championship gave some media attention to Estate which also hade an effect on the sales. This hopefully never should be the sole motivation for attending the WBC, but of course there is a potential marketing effect I gaining such a title. Even though the news value of a Danish World Barista Champion is quite worn out these years;-)
2006 WBC冠軍為Estate Coffee帶來一些說大不大，說小也不小的關注，這也多少有一些銷售上作用。我當然希望這不會是參加WBC唯一的動機，儘管得到這個頭銜的確會有一個潛在的銷售效應。何況丹麥拿冠軍的新聞價值在這幾年已經消耗殆盡了 
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